Cloudwatching in Ottawa

March 18 2011

2011-03-18T04:26:00.000-07:00

They are at it right now, 7:27 am EST. Three trails going from east to west, one bisecting southwest to north eastish.

Nice thick ones.. :P

On a brighter note I saw a small flock of geese flying overhead yesterday evening. It was 9 C outside and the breeze was beautiful - the earth is smelling alive again.

Aerosol Spraying over Ottawa, Canada

2010-12-13T06:49:00.000-08:00

I have collected a few videos of aerosol spraying over Ottawa, Canada. Since I am on a really peeled down computer which doesn't seem to think it can upload pic of my own, and these videos are better than what I can do with my luddite camera abilities, I thought I would stick them up here for others to see.

This was taken at the Science and Tech museum in Ottawa:

gOsth4ck3d's Channel Youtube

Cloudy, overcast, yet it continues

2010-12-10T06:11:00.001-08:00

Not a long post, just a quick note to say that even though it has been overcast here, I have still seen the telltale spraying going on.

The strangest ones are the dots and dashes, while they certainly look more 'natural' as they spread, no one can tell me those are normal contrails, in a way, when they do it by degrees (short lines, stop then another short line) it is REALLY obvious that there is more to this than anyone is willing to admit.

Cheers

Excellent blog post and article

2010-11-27T08:02:00.000-08:00

I know I haven't posted anywhere in a while. Life gets in the way sometimes. That said, I would like to share a link to a fellow bloggers wonder post on Chemtrails, in which another link to a suberb documentary is listed:

Undeleted Evidence: Chemtrails? What's all this about then?

Thank you HHQ for your endeavour.

BTW - they continue on an almost daily basis to bombard us here in the nation's capital with these things - soon the younger generations will think these are all just 'normal' contrails... but they ARE NOT.

Please look up, please ask questions.

An Addmission?

2010-07-15T05:56:00.000-07:00

Calgary hailstones shrunk by cloud seeding planes

The Monday storm that pounded Calgary with hail the size of golf balls would have been even more severe if cloud seeding planes hadn't been in the sky earlier in the day, says an official with the company that flies the aircraft.

Just before the hail hit the city, Weather Modification Inc. had two airplanes in the air, seeding the clouds with shots of silver iodide, which shrinks the ice stones, said Tom Walton, the company's field program manager.

So, is this the media's way of softening us up? Little addmissions, little leaks to gauge our reactions? Well, judging by the comments on the CBC site there are alot of folks out there who DO look up and DON'T like what they see.

Must Read

2010-05-12T04:22:00.000-07:00

Heavy Metals Poisoning, Brain Injury, and Clandestine Weather Modification Programs Connecting the Dots - Part 1

Celia and Bill Abrams

2010-04-29T06:20:00.000-07:00

Acidification of the Oceans - Another AGW Lie bites the Dust

2010-04-09T08:29:00.001-07:00

Acid Oceans Due to Undersea Volcanoes?

April 2 and 3rd

2010-04-02T04:17:00.000-07:00

Pardon my absence in reporting, had a family emergency I've had to deal with (and still am).

The trails have been going on as usual, almost every day. Yesterday, for the first time in a while I spent some time outside - they were spraying heavily all day long, six or seven trails in the sky continually. By late afternoon the entire western hemisphere of the sky was white and hazy.

*sigh*

We'll see if they get up to it again today, being 'Good Friday' and all.

****

Well, they sprayed all day and are at it again today.

Good bye blue skies

March 17, 18 and 19: Yes, all day every day

2010-03-19T06:46:00.000-07:00

I've had a family emergency, but wanted to update that the trails have continued every day this week and now, as I write, can be seen in the hazy southeastern sky.

March 16: More spraying

2010-03-16T08:08:00.000-07:00

Yes, they are at it again. Though today, I saw a plane going from West to East? I guess a little variation is needed by the ptbs.

Ha ha.

One weird thing, they've been doing alot of 'dashes'. Where they start a trail, stop, then restart. Now, if these things were actual contrails (water vapour) this would be physically impossible.

Something to think about anyway.

The documentation continues... and I'm outta here.

March 15: At it Again

2010-03-15T06:50:00.001-07:00

Yeppers, they are at it again this morning.

March 13: Will it ever stop?

2010-03-13T04:45:00.000-08:00

Good morning! Well at first I thought 'great no spraying so far today', as I gazed out my window towards the eastern sky, lightly peppered with cottony cirrocumulus clouds. This delusion however did not last as I went for an early morning wander and looked up seeing a trail to the north running east to west.

So, they're still at it. There is rain in the forecast today, and it's becoming overcast already, I doubt I'll witness much more today.

March 11 and 12: Trails Abound

2010-03-12T04:56:00.001-08:00

Well, just since I seem to have been logging all this on a daily basis, just thought I'd mention that they're at it again - all day yesterday and this AM too. It's 7:57 right now and I can see three clear trails in the south eastern sky. I don't doubt that this will continue all day long, as it does, darn near every bloody day.

March 10: More Spraying

2010-03-10T11:39:00.000-08:00

Well, it's 2:39 Wednesday afternoon, and the sky is full of puffy dashes and some pretty good long streaks. Looking westwards the horizon is a haze. The day was clear and bright this am, didn't notice too many trails, but just happened to have a chance to glance outside and goodness - there they are! Like clockwork, almost every darn day now.

Still working on the stupid camera/computer recognition thing...

March 9: At it again

2010-03-09T04:29:00.001-08:00

Sunday was clear, and yesterday I didn't notice any aerosol spraying, but lo and behold they are at it again this AM, currently there are two trails being laid down, from east towards the west (as usual). Time is 7:30.

March 6: More Spraying

2010-03-06T04:36:00.000-08:00

Yep, it's now 7:37, I'm drinking my coffee looking out the window to the southeast and can see three clear trails spreading out now to the west.

Busy boys... :(

March 5: More Spraying

2010-03-05T03:52:00.000-08:00

Time is currently 6:53 and it's begun again. The sky is currently cloudless, and looking to be a bright blue sky day. This will not last, as the laying down of trails has already begun. Starting as usual with dashes from the east towards the west.

I am sorry that I can't upload the pictures, as this most basic of computers just doesn't seem to want to recognize that there is a camera attached to it (it's okay since is doesn't seem to think there is a printer attached as well). I will upload a bunch when I have got a new machine.

If you're in Ottawa, just look up and to the east and they are plain as day.

It's such a mystery.

Update 9:34: No more trails have been seen, apart from a couple very scraggly dashes to the south south eastern section of the city. So far, the sky is blue, deep and clear.

I'll keep watching.

Update: While busy most of the afternoon and not noticing too much action in the sky, I did catch some amazing trails late in the afternoon. Four massive streaks spanning the entire sky from east to west into the setting sun. I took some pics, will work on my computer problem.

March 4: Chemtrails over Ottawa

2010-03-04T03:32:00.000-08:00

They're at it again this morning, 6:33 spraying from east to west, one long dash, followed by a equal length of clear space and then another long dash.

As with yesterday I suspect they will continue this aersol blight for the rest of the morning.

Update: 7:18 a really nice long one, no dashes, east to west (the preferred spraying direction around here).

Update: Well, they were spraying all morning, a few X's were visible for a long time (hours). Just now, 1:59 there is a new trail being laid down going south to north, unusual I dare say.

I will try to get some pictures uploaded if I can find the software for my camera and get this 'new' computer with the program.

March 3: Chemtrails at 7:00 AM

2010-03-03T04:26:00.000-08:00

Just thought I'd note this here (in case anyone else is looking).

They are spraying this morning, east to west, in long dashes.

I've seen em doing it again

2010-02-16T05:28:00.000-08:00

No pics, but you can trust me... ;)

They've been at it again, over the long weekend here. Lot's of dashes and dots, always running from east to west.

I will attempt to be better with the camera, I have a few shots from December and January, will get them up at some point.

I did read somewhere about alot of heavy spraying in the Surrey region in BC.

I wonder... how are they going to sell this behaviour now that AGW is in the tank? Weather modification seemed to be the 'explanation' that was beginning to unfold - they are spraying to reduce 'global warming'.

That isn't going to work anymore though is it??

I know Volcanoes aren't Clouds.. but...

2010-02-06T05:20:00.000-08:00

As our media continues to hawk Global Warming there have been reports of the Arctic sea ice melting, has anyone thought that perhaps the massive volcanic systems which line the Arctic Basin might just add a little 'heat' to the water?

Fire Under Arctic Ice

We are talking pyroclastic flows under the ocean! This is extraordinary as most underwater eruptions are flows and not explosive in nature.

Just keep and open mind and always ask who benefits from this lie, it isn't YOU or I.

Geo-engineering Links

2010-01-16T12:04:00.000-08:00

I thought it might be helpful to toss up some links to articles regarding geoengineering.

Geoengineering Projects That Could Offset Global Warming

“The realisation that existing efforts to mitigate the effects of human-induced climate change are proving wholly ineffectual has fuelled a resurgence of interest in geo-engineering,” said lead author Prof Tim Lenton of UEA’s School of Environmental Sciences. (note: UEA is the Univerity of East Anglia - the same folk who have 'adjusted' their 'raw' data to get their desired outcomes)

DARPA to Explore Geoengineering

An official advisory group to the Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency is convening an unclassified meeting next week to discuss geoengineering, ScienceInsider has learned. DARPA is the latest in a number of official science funding agencies or top scientific societies that are exploring the controversial idea. But one leading advocate of the work opposes the military developing geoengineering techniques.

Weighing the Pros and Cons of Stratospheric Geoengineering

Fleets of small jet aircraft could fly into the lower stratosphere several times a day and release sulfur gas to produce planet-cooling sulfate aerosols

Royal Society: Geoengineering the Climate:science, governance and uncertainty
This one has many downloadable PDF files

Chemtrail Smoking Gun: Proof of Global Geoengineering Projects
A very interesting page, and here is the link to the chemtrail database.

I'll be back to add a few more later!

Climate Change and Geoengineering
(This is the interesting part:)

In relation to ‘geoengineering’, the ‘Climate Change 2001’ report of the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change confirms that it ‘includes the possibility of engineering the earth’s climate system by large-scale manipulation of the global energy balance. It has been estimated, for example, that the mean effect on the earth surface energy balance from a doubling of CO2 could be offset by an increase of 1.5% to 2% in the earth’s albedo, i.e. by reflecting additional incoming solar radiation back into space….

Climate Scientists Convene Global Geo-engineering Summit

Meeting in California in March will discuss possible field trials of schemes that would tackle climate change by reflecting sunlight or fertilising the ocean with iron

Geo-engineering conference to discuss blocking sun

2010-01-14T04:06:00.000-08:00

Geoengineering Conference to Discuss Blocking Sun

Clearly photoshopped, but a good pic none the less.

In the above linked article we learn of the conference committed to discussing ways to halt 'Global Warming', on of which is to spray various particulates into the atmosphere to increase the albedo effect, thus reflecting solar radiation back into space.

I have heard other reports that this is part of the reason we see such an increase in chemtrail spraying.

Excerpt from above article, click on the link to read the entire piece and view the embedded links:

"As we have previously highlighted, a prominent supporter of geoengineering proposals is none other than White House science czar John P. Holdren, a key Obama advisor who infamously co-authored a book in which he called for a “planetary regime” to enforce draconian population control measures such as forced abortion, infanticide and mandatory sterilization.

In April last year, Holdren revealed that high-level talks had already taken place to explore the possibility of “geoengineering” the environment by “shooting pollution particles into the upper atmosphere to reflect the sun’s rays”.

“It’s got to be looked at,” Holdren was quoted as saying, “We don’t have the luxury of taking any approach off the table.” The AP also reported that Holdren said he had raised the concept in administration discussions.

Letting modern day eugenicists like Holdren mess with the planet would be like handing Dr. Josef Mengele control of the health care system. Holdren has proven himself to be a barbarian and a control freak, promoting a brand of bloodthirsty eugenics even more depraved than anything Hitler proposed in his drive for a super race."

Leading Global Warming Crusader: Cap and Trade May INCREASE CO2 Emissions

2010-01-06T07:49:00.000-08:00

James Hansen - the world's leading climate scientist fighting against global warming - told Amy Goodman this morning that cap and trade not only won't reduce emissions, it may actually increase them:
The problem is that the emissions just go someplace else. That’s what happened after Kyoto, and that’s what would happen again, if—as long as fossil fuels are the cheapest energy, they will be burned someplace. You know, the Europeans thought they actually reduced their emissions after Kyoto, but what happened was the products that had been made in their countries began to be made in other countries, which were burning the cheapest form of fossil fuel, so the total emissions actually increased...

Not only do the emmissions go someplace else - SO DO THE MANUFACTURING JOBS!!!

Wealth redistribution with only the top benefitting = AGW

I'm back - sort of

2010-01-06T05:15:00.000-08:00

My computer is still dead, however thanks to a geeky son I have a temporary one right now to use.

That said, with all the clouds and snow we've had lately I haven't really been able to see if there is any spraying going on. However, on the last sunny (and bloody cold) day I did see the familiar trails gracing the skies. Some dots and dashes, other long linear trails. So, they're not stopping clearly.

Will upload a few pics later on - can't seem to locate the cable right now.

I will also update some of the links for the global warming hoax.

Cheers

My computer is dead

2009-12-18T15:21:00.001-08:00

Hopefully it will be resurrected.

Please excuse my lack of posting, am on son's now, but can't handle his keyboard.

Will update when my beast is herself again.

Hee hee

2009-12-01T13:13:00.001-08:00

The Geologic Record and Climate Change

2009-11-27T07:14:00.000-08:00

I put this piece up in the links of my previous article, though I think it needs its own thread, given the misconceptions about climate change itself, and the clear political bias surrounding Carbon driven 'warming'.

The Geologic Record and Climate Change - Tim Patterson

In this lecture delivered at the Risk: Regulation and Reality Conference, Tim Patterson of Carleton University provides an enlightening lecture on climate change and the variable associated with these changes from a geological perspective.

Please take the time and give this a good read.

Then breathe and think.

Hadley Hack - CRU Scandal

2009-11-21T07:16:00.000-08:00

Just thought I'd throw up some other links to the debacle now unfurling regarding the data manipulations at the CRU:

New links added 26 November at bottom

The CRU Hack
Climate sceptics claim leaked emails are evidence of collusion among scientists
CRU director admits hacked files genuine
The Death Blow to Climate Science (a very GOOD one)
Climate Depot Reveals Alleged Global Warming Conspiracy
Shocker: Climate scientists are petty, vindictive
Climategate:How the MSM reported the greatest scandal in modern science
Climate scientists accused of 'manipulating global warming data'
E-mail leak turns up heat on global warming advocates

Climatic Research Unit emails, data, models, 1996-2000

Who leaked the Hadley CRU files and why (asks some good questions)

the phrase "Hadley CRU" is not the true name of the Climatic Research Unit of the University of East Anglia. The first person to use that phrase was Anthony Watts, of Watts Up With That. As RealClimate.org and others have noted, Watts is the first person to use the phrase "Hadley Centre" to describe the CRU. This is incorrect; the CRU does not use the word "Hadley" in its name, and the "Hadley Centre" is an entirely separate institution, having no connection with Phil Jones or his team

.

Klimaforschungsinstitut gehackt - manipulative Praktiken aufgeflogen

Climategate: Why it matters
VIDEO: Dr. Ball on the CRU Hack
Climate Audit
Those hacked climate emails and the problem of government reliance on experts
Oh oh, Raw Data in New Zealand tells a different story than the 'official' one

The Geologic Record and Climate Change - Tim Patterson
Obama’s Science Czar John Holdren involved in unwinding “Climategate” scandal

How dirty is Gore?
Obama, Maurice Strong, Al Gore key players in Chicago Climate Exchange

Lord Monckton on Alex Jones (thanks Doug)

Climate Change: this is the worst scientific scandal of our generation
Watts up with that

Jail politicians who ignore climate debate: Suzuki
Read the Sunspots
Climate change data dumped

(I may add more later)

Flashback:
The Great Global Warming Swindle

November 21 - Skywatching...

2009-11-21T05:43:00.000-08:00

As I follow my regular Saturday morning routine (housework, radio etc) I have watched the sky to the south turn a glowing silver haze.

Here are some pics, so far. I may add some later as the day proceeds:

8:15 am EDT Nov. 21 09 Southern Sky

8:20 am EDT Nov. 21 09 Due Eastern Sky

8:21 am Nov. 21 09 Western Sky

Just an update, I saw quite a few when doing the shopping, sadly didn't have cam or phone with me. They were dashes rather than full straight lines.

This is interesting because when they disperse they tend to look more 'natural'

Like this beautiful example of typical wispy cirrus clouds at sunset:

Climate Change and the Hadley CRU Hack

2009-11-21T04:09:00.000-08:00

I pondered whether to put this here in the cloudwatching blog, or on my more political blog - but decided to whack it up here, since this chemtrail spraying is often dismissed as weather modification to decrease 'global warming'.

Now, while I would usually lambaste anyone who supports 'hacking' and the theft of private data, I must say that with regard to the AGWers I have a hard time feeling all that sorry and would kind of like to shake this particular thief's hand.

It seems that the Hadley Climate Research Unit's database and email storage was successfully hacked, thousands of emails have now come to the fore:

Hadley Hacked: Warmist conspiracy exposed?

So the 1079 emails and 72 documents seem indeed evidence of a scandal involving most of the most prominent scientists pushing the man-made warming theory - a scandal that is one of the greatest in modern science. I’ve been adding some of the most astonishing in updates below - emails suggesting conspiracy, collusion in exaggerating warming data, possibly illegal destruction of embarrassing information, organised resistance to disclosure, manipulation of data, private admissions of flaws in their public claims and much more. If it is as it now seems, never again will “peer review” be used to shout down sceptics.

This is clearly not the work of some hacker, but of an insider who’s now blown the whistle.

Not surprising, then, that Steve McIntyre reports:
Earlier today, CRU cancelled all existing passwords. Actions speaking loudly.

Keep in mind that the CRU is the same organisation who has previously been caught destroying data:

The Dog Ate My Global Warming Data

If we are to believe Jones’s note to the younger Pielke, CRU adjusted the original data and then lost or destroyed them over twenty years ago. The letter to Warwick Hughes may have been an outright lie. After all, Peter Webster received some of the data this year. So the question remains: What was destroyed or lost, when was it destroyed or lost, and why?

This outing of some of the most vociferous proponents of the Global Warming myth is monolithic in scope. Added to the denials of FOI requests, the trashing of the 'hockey' stick model and the clearly political nature (NOT scientific) of the AGW agenda this 'hack' will hopefully end this insane rush to a 'carbon credit' economy.

AGW has nothing, I repeat NOTHING to do with preserving or remediating our damaged ecological environment, it DOES has a lot to do with making certain people VERY rich.

So, follow the links, keep your eyes open and question, question then question some more.

BTW - they are spraying here again today - will post pics later on.

Comment??

2009-11-16T06:52:00.001-08:00

Dunno why, but for some reason I can't post a comment on this blog - even though it's mine.

November 13 Chemtrails in Ottawa

2009-11-14T04:39:00.000-08:00

Sadly, I didn't have my camera with me but yesterday there was quite a bit of spraying going on particularly in the northern part of the sky. I saw many solid trails as well as the dots and dashes I mentioned before.

I will try to have at least my cell phone with me, when out and about next time.

And here I was saying the it seemed quiet on the aerosol front..

Military Chaff - a cause for concern?

2009-11-13T04:44:00.001-08:00

What is 'Chaff'? I wondered that as well. It is often offered up as the explanation of these strange trails we see in the sky. Being the curious gal I am, off I went to find out about chaff. Below is a really good concise definition:

Chaff - Radar Counter measures

Chaff and flares are defensive mechanisms employed from military aircrafi to avoid detection and/or attack by adversary air defense systems. Chaff consists of small fibers that reflect radar signals and, when dispensed in large quantities from aircraft, form a cloud that temporarily hides the aircraft from radar detection. The two major types of military chaff in use are aluminum foil and aluminum-coated glass fibers. The aluminum foil-type is no longer manufactured, although it may still be in use.

When ejected from an aircraft, chaff forms the electromagnetic equivalent of a visual smoke screen that temporarily hides the aircraft from radar. Chaff also serves to decoy radar allowing aircraft to maneuver or egress from the area. It consists of small, extremely tie fibers of aluminum or aluminum-coated glass that disperse widely in the air when ejected from the aircraft and effectively reflect radar signals in various bands, in order to create a very large image of reflected signals (“return”) on the radar screen. In the air, the initial burst from a chaff bundle forms a sphere that shows up on radar screens as an electronic cloud. The aircraft is obscured by the cloud, which confuses enemy radar. Since chaff can obstruct radar, its use is coordinated with the Federal Aviation Administration (FAA).

There is also a handy list of the various types and uses of chaffs just to the right of the above citation.

Another one I found is Contrail Facts put out by the US Air Force. It is an interesting read. If everything discussed in the above document can explain these lingering patterns in the sky I still find it rather concerning as to the vast amount of pollutants themselves.

From the above pdf:
Chaff and flares are defensive counter measures used on aircraft to confuse radar and heat seeking missiles. Chaff is used as a decoy for radar seeking missiles and is made of glass silicate fibers with an aluminum coating. The fibers are approximately 60% glass fiber and 40% aluminum by weight. The typical Air Force RR-188 chaff bundle contains about 150 g of chaff or about 5 million fibers. The fibers are 25 microns in diameter and typically 1 to 2 cm in length. In 1997, the Air Force used about 1.8 million bundles worldwide. The amount of chaff released worldwide by all of the services is approximately 500 tons per year. Chaff falls to the earth at a settling velocity of approximately 30 cm per second. Atmospheric residence times range from 10 minutes for the majority of chaff released at 100 m to approximately 10 hours for chaff released at 10,000 feet. Chaff fibers experience little
breakup before reaching the ground.

So, there you go. I must say however, that I doubt that these trails are 'chaff'. One would imagine that if that is what they are, it wouldn't be an issue to just tell folks that. Although, needless to say the idea of these particulates raining down onto me isn't truly inspiring either.

I know that others may have seen the below article before, but I'll link to it just in case:

From the Idaho Observer 2006

Last May a family in Iowa contacted the office of Sen. Tom Harkin (D-IA) to report the constant criss-crossing of "chemtrails" in the sky above their neighborhood. They received back from the senator’s office a General Accounting Office (GAO) report on "military chaff" and the material safety data sheet for aluminum-coated fiberglass fibers being spread—seven days a week for several hours each day—in the skies above their home.

Having the fallout tested the lab reported back with this analysis:

6 bacteria, including anthrax and pneumonia

9 chemicals including acetylcholine chloride

26 heavy metals including arsenic, gold, lead,mercury, silver, uranium and zinc

4 molds and fungi

7 viruses

2 cancers

2 vaccines

2 sedatives

Hmmmm.... well it seems to me that chaff doesn't really explain this phenomena.

I'll keep digging, though I don't expect there is one really good answer. This spraying most likely has many more than one explanation, and where the truth may be is anyone's guess at this time.

As far as my neck of the woods, it's been rather quiet lately with the trails. I've seen a few, but FAR less that during the month of October. Which, if these were normal contrails following regular flight paths should not happen.

So, the mystery continues.

Look Daddy, there's a chemtrail up in the sky!

2009-11-05T04:48:00.000-08:00

Thanks Doug:

Just a quick update...

2009-11-05T04:35:00.000-08:00

Well, it seems the sprayers are on hiatus the last few days - though there has been clouds and who can tell what goes on behind them.

I'm currently working on a post regarding military chaff - used to obscure radar. I'll try to get that up in the next week or so.

Today is cloudy and rain is in the forecast - can't see anything other than a dull grey mass posing as 'sky'.

Just for fun though, here's a pic of a recent visitor to my home:

Cloudbusting

2009-10-29T03:06:00.000-07:00

Thanks Nobody, for reminding me of this! Gosh it's got to be almost 20 years since I've heard this one. Kate was truly a marvel.

Chemtrails over Ottawa

2009-10-26T13:44:00.000-07:00

Just thought I'd stick up some shots I took on October 9. This aerosol spraying has been going on daily. On this particular day, I was working outside in the garden, getting ready for winter and such, so I was outside pretty much all afternoon. That evening, I was sneezing my head off - so were ALL my cats. The next day, my throat was scratchy and sore, nose running like a tap. I DO not have any allergies.

Anyway, here some pics for your viewing pleasure:

First Post

2009-10-26T04:52:00.000-07:00

I've always been an avid cloud watcher. Lazy summer days growing up, my mum and I would lay in the yard and watch the clouds - seeing so many things and letting our imaginations run wild. I've never lost the wonder and awe I find gazing up at our beautiful skies. I've of course, continued this tradition with my own son.

The sky is a beautiful place.

Sandbanks Provincial Park, Ontario, Canada

I'll upload some others, in which the sky has turned into a very odd place - to say the least.